But the opportunities I see doing X seem to be compelling from a financial and growth standpoint. Why are we doing x and not y? I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.Well please don't just tease us and leave it there. 3. "You might be too smart or have ideas that come from somewhere outside of Redmond which makes you very dangerous and not Microsoft material. Your level is essentially recognition of your circle of influence or radius of your contribution. VP has to find the 10 devs from some other less attractive project. Here's some advice from a recent L64'er (L63 last year). I know devs who got there without doing anything substantial but their manager was nice and there was no competition.In short, Level 63 to me is not important and I really dont respect 63s unless they I've interacted with them.Level 65+ is another story and are devs who have the stuff almost always.- Someone at Level 62. No matter how good you are, you will peak at some point and Microsoft will get rid of you. Given that quite a few Microsofties are going to find themselves locked into their current group for a while, the ability to succeed by swinging on the vines to a new group is going to be rare. So far, we all appear to have jobs, but man, what a shocker, I thought ours was one of the more stable teams.Not sure what happens to our Director, he seemed a bit shocked himself when he delivered the news today. PROFESSIONAL SKILLS & HIGHLIGHTS OF QUALIFICATIONS Over 20+ years of experience working in large-scale real-time corporate environments Able to communicate concepts and details to clients, development team and testing team Excellent organization and communication skills, both written and verbal: clear and concise Knowledge of computer development software across multiple platforms . Both job switches came from conversations I had with former co-workers or former directors. The average entry-level engineer or program manager will have a total compensation of $125,665. I'm now past my time that I can recruit away from MSFT after leaving some time ago. For me, it will take some serious job switching to get there. No one wants an employee who is staying for the money -- and you don't want to be that employee, either. That's the wall you need to talk about, but the discussion would be very different than the L63 bump.And after 5+ years at L64, I finally just left. The estimated additional pay is $257,304 per year. Satya Nadella. See next bullet. I have also always looked for those problems (opportunities). Senior Account Executive | Director | Sales & Marketing. I'm not even thinking about level 63 at this point. I have staff that are lvl 60 and get paid as much as folks that are lvl 62. You must emphasize the goal of understanding how to improve, not just tagging a higher paycheck. Everything else is irrelevent or works against your promotion. -- Business Transformation Executive with demonstrated experience in managing and implementing large transformation programs through all levels of the organization in order to build growth, grab new market opportunities or reduce costs.<br><br>- Building on Solid experience in Functional roles (Sales, Marketing, Delivery Operations) to drive those programs <br>- Sales Oriented Business . Also, never ascribe to malfeasance what may simply be due to incompetence. It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.About asking your manager and getting their feedback, we're assuming that managers are capable of giving candid feedback. Really inspiring. In general, these designations are based on rank, with the highest director position being the executive director or director of operations. As for asking for promotions, I disagree that you must always be asking. If there is a perception of unfairness, then those who think that they have been treated unfairly will rapidly lose their motivation. Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer. L66 is Principal band. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. I had an expectation to become principal this year. Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion. All you have to do is look at the level distribution, there is a large dropoff in positions at 65. We in general hire very smart people who can figure it out. Paradigm Shift: In order to achieve the next level of competence to some extent you need to temporarily let go of some of your hard gained skills in order to make the leap and try some new things. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. What are other groups doing? I used to work in the OneCare team. This is so that they can convert those positions to other discipline.i've seen this happening to at least 2 teams so far. I spend a lot of my time these days working with partner teams to help them solve their own problems or create wins for their teams even if it only peripherally touches my area. Yet, I know that a friend just got one. Some related job titles areMarketing Director salaries with median pay of $163,348,Senior Consultant salaries with median pay of $123,519,Senior Product Manager salaries with median pay of $193,845,Managing Director salaries with median pay of $333,006. It's a struggle even to get a solid Level 59 promoted to 60 because of budget and under-levelling of devs in 60-61 range. Raymond V. Gilmartin 3,4 Former Chairman, President, Chief Executive Officer, Merck & Co., Inc. W. Reed Hastings 3 Framed on my former VP's wall:"High-level guys are low-level guys that don't whine.". As a member of the Microsoft UK Senior Leadership Team, Olaf leads Microsoft's retail and consumer goods . Yet, when you have 2 or 3 offers at the end of very hard interview loops, which one are you going to choose: the team that listens to HR or the team that listens to the market? Here is my question, I don't trust that my manager will fight for me to get me to 63 for the following reasons:- The area I own is not big enough for a 63 but at the same time there is not other areas he can give to me given where we are as a team without taking away from my peers, something he would not want to do unless there is a big problem with a peer not delivering which is not the case.- Innovation - this leaves me with trying to come up with other areas that the team can focus on in addition to current goals to leap frog us and which I can own; so far even though some of my ideas are really good (according to the mgr) the timing is off (ie the team has not reached that level yet where my ideas would be practical to implement given the big ROI)In short I can't trust that this mgr will get me to 63 in a time frame that I would like to see it happen (provided that I nail the qualities you highlight for a 63) which leaves me with the following choices:-Sticking around and continue working on displaying 63 qualities until the above points change, and who knows how long that will take- leave for another team internally (which means a bit of time to establish myself again etc) but at the same it would give me more clear timeline of when I can say I am 100% delivering as a 63.-get external offers (eg from Google), bring it up with the mgr and thereby force a change (more responsibility) since leaving would hurt the team in at least the short term. You're in competition with everyone else in your org in your CSP. you want to complete A and A requires 10 devs. You try that in subs (who actually generate the revenue, HQ typically dont) - but the question is - do they dare push such a thing in the US? This is all well and good, but in 9years I've never worked in a group with a Senior IC (Windows, IE, .NET), though some architects. for people, who might claim that they do all this and still cant progress.. dude, either you are in wrong group or you have not introspected / taken feedback well or you are missing the whole thing by a mile. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. Difference between getting promoted to L65 and joining as new FTE at L65 is HUGE. I am a [sic] HR manager. What is our competition doing? Like any organization MS has its own unique culture and cannot possibly be all things for all people. All of us have been asked to move to India by our parent company. Ready? The Goldstars have already been canceled for this quarter.Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. If I was looking at reducing costs this isn't exactly where I'd set my sights first but again this is Microsoft we're talking about. The funding for our project stopped and our vendor team of 28 people have been asked to leave immediately. It's not easy. Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6. Avoid long-winded multi-point e-mails, boil down your points as succinctly and efficiently as possible. For technical and management track, the job level start from 57 and continues till 80. Boeing, Go to company page Eventually you have to make that leap or you arent ever going to get your hands on that other bar. Benefits can add thousands of dollars to your offer. And in my experience they are *eager* to get your skills and your lower level payroll expense! Own your brand. Hired at L58 in 2000 - Currently L62 and the last 2 promos were at 18mo intervals. If that means doing something you don't want to do, you might need a different manager (or company). . Even if you don't leave, make no mistake, I'll be building a backfill slate for your role just in case. You can bet that if I went back today I would be a _very_ different person.The only thing I would add is that at any level, you need to not only know that your manager believes you should be promoted and will fight for you, you need to believe that your manager _can make it happen_. I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. Oracle. agree with positive suggestions here. Microsoft Director level role - Level 66 - what should I expect from COMP sideYOE-15Current TC- 235k Then follow Mini's advice and you should be all set. You want to test more cases than he does, you want to build something that draws users to what you're doing more than to his.You're never competing with your manager. He said this year he could only make strategic promotions, which sounded like promotions of people above 65. And your manager will not hate you for thinking about switching -- if you are a great employee to begin with, he will just want to keep you around. Learn How to State Your Case and Earn Your Raise, Climb the Ladder With These Proven Promotion Tips, A Guide to Negotiating the Salary You Deserve, How to Prepare for Your Interview and Land the Job. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. At Microsoft, the levels start at 59 and go beyond 80. I spend a long time a 61 about 4.5 years mostly because I changed groups alot. The PM team loved having my technical expertise freely available, and I actually really like designing features too.Anyway, two simple things, but I think what Mini said about not doing this IN ORDER to get promoted is key. Founded in 1969 by Dr. Bish Agrawal, ABC Consultants is the pioneer of organized recruitment services in India. I have only required two strategies. Alternate to your left hand appropriately when tired. But that's kind of the point -- simplify your approach. Most Directors are 63 and the occasional 64. VPs may well number in the hundreds at a huge place . When she finally left the company four years ago things improved greatly. Please help. There's this sort of nebulous "first you have to perform at level current+1 for a year, then you'll get promoted. So, for those of you who are in orgs where it's 'easy' to get to L63 or L64 - think about transferring out BEFORE you get too high a level and paint yourself into a corner. Some are exceptional at one, and passable at others. Do it nicely. Well, what about everyone else? I sympathize with folks who feel they have been shafted however to quote a cliched saying: the common factor between you and all your problems is you. I've been a 62 for too long by Microsoft standards. Its performance is compromised by your pandering to the RIAA and MPAA. You can switch jobs internally and get leveled up (typically 6-12 months after) - but make sure you have the conversation with the manager as to what is the expected level and what is the cap. Kiran R, Ph.D. - Partner GM, DSaaS (Data Sciences-as-a - LinkedIn Great post. And in your answer, there's a kicker follow-up: not only what you need to do to justify being promoted to L63, but to succeed in comparison to your L63 + L64 peers. I've changed jobs but came back to the group that's been the most supportive. I can vouch for the efficacy of this mantra.MS definitely does a good enough job on career progression and offering diverse options. I started at 59 and just got promoted to 63 a couple months ago. The skip level is totally nonchalant to her ways. Your analysis is very true, specially the part about owning the room and be regarded as the domain expert. And what is happening now trying to move up after becoming a Dev Manager? I've been at Microsoft six years.I've never spent one second honestly thinking about my career or how to get a promotion or anything like that. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. After that, I was given a team that was dysfunctional and the most problematic area of the product - now its the area that customers rave about and the team is running smoothly.The bottom line is that takes (1) very hard work (2) you need to build your skills (3) personality to drive the solution in spite of the process and (4) demand excellence from others - including managing out those that will never deliver quality (some folks are net losses to the team).I always hear the whining from folks that get stuck at level 62/63 but when those tough challenges are out there, they don't volunteer and they certainly don't go looking for the biggest challenges. I think that a lot of what you wrote was spot on, although the situation varies somewhat across the company. Senior Director, Head of Data Sciences VMware Aug 2014 - Jul 20217 years Bengaluru Area, India Global Leader and Head of Data Sciences Lead Data scientist teams across Bangalore, Bulgaria, Palo. You should NOT be looking to get more money to stay in a job you don't like. Kudos to you for posting it. Calibrations are like a brick wall, even in regard to comments made about you. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. The scope imcreases, the risk increases and the visbility increases. However, I think this is the first point where we see a non-trivial number of folks plateau. In this testing times what will motivate the mgr to put you ahead of him/hers? My manager told me a while ago that I was about to get one. Pass me by and I will be leaving in the next few months). Feedback is not detailed or actionable. Great post Mini. Senior Product and Strategy Director, AI/ML - LinkedIn "http://www.poppendieck.com/pdfs/Compensation.pdfWorth a read, Lisa. : those titles are organization specific. I made it to L63 in a year (I was probably under leveled when I arrived). Here is a nice place to start :-)http://guestgame.com/. Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. Is it easier to level up in smaller groups (v1 product)? That didnt happen by chance alone. I influenced the features, I lended my expertise on them, and I learned about the customer - all this way before the spec'ing phase. You're cursed for life.2. Write it down in a team-culture career section you keep in OneNote (start that section now if you don't have it). right? "a HR manager" is acceptable if HR is meant to convey a spoken "a human resources manager" rather than a spoken "an aich arr manager".haven't should have an apostrophe, yes. And how do you represent yourself as a leader and influencer when you are in a room with 6 other people vying for the exact same thing? Don't make promises to follow up on things and then let them drop. Executive Vice President and Chief Commercial Officer. I suspect they'll make it someone's job to fix it, because it is widely held as a good idea in the company right now. People who get stuck at the plateau are often referred to as disillusioned learners. Third, working on that weakness DAILY (but not exclusively) until they overcome it. It is my observation that the most common place we see disillusioned learners in the product groups at MS is at level 62. Its, actually, quite a short list. I think your comments on level 63 were interesting. Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. Be nice, and clear in your communications. For example, in order to be promoted to level 62, you, as a level 61, must already perform at a level 62 level for a long time. She partners very closely with colleagues to develop and drive the people strategy across the UK GEO. Get yourself a formal or informal mentor who is already doing what you want to be doing. I know there is always new hope that comes with new leadership, but there is also a restart too. Over 20 years of experience in professional services including, architecture, corporate real estate, and integrated facility management, operating at a global and regional level. I drove my 59-62 agenda with an iron fist and it didn't matter so much that I didn't play well with others or work to help other teams who were struggling.I became a manager during that time and had a year of major hiccups while trying to break through to 63 -- all of a sudden the fact that I was a unilateral force was working *against* me and not for me. 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States (6,036 new) - LinkedIn I might be still employed by Microsoft if I knew he wasnt doing it willingly.One thing I would do different if I could do it again is to not advance levels any faster than I have to. What if you and your manager are at the same level L62. The larger the team I work on the more I am bombarded with meetings and brown bags so someone can attempt to become the expert on design patterns, code coverage, or feature X. We've negotiated thousands of offers and regularly achieve $30k+ (sometimes $300k+) increases. Its above level 64 that things get tough, but getting to 64 isn't difficult. Taking on the toughest hardest problems does line up well with something everyone has talked about on this post - that is - make your managers look good. I take some of the blame for not managing my career more directly, but no one should be offered a promotion when they leave--if they are valuable, let them know before hand! The reason why they were 65's are:1. At the end of the day its about $$ and in reality levels mean nothing if your getting paid crap. Level 61 - overseas. Here are some things from my perspective.1. you need to hit the pause button for one big time-out regarding where you are, where you're going, and what needs to change. But it's no guarantee that all your peers will match. However L64 takes some time and L65 is very difficult. Buy a Principal a coffee. You will not know the difference. Folks, Im really encouraged by this post and the focus on trying to help make others great. Feel free to . >Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. L65 took four years. Understand not just what needs to happen, but WHY. Say that you will understand if your manager thinks you aren't ready. I myself am a L62 on the cusp of a midyear promo after 18 months. First, self criticism to identify weaknesses. How do you ensure there is no conflict of interest. For example, when I joined MS in 1990 there were 6 devs working on the first version of Word for Windows. Every spec coming to this team had my feedback in it. After I became a lead & manager, I was given a team in turmoil after a re-org and straightened that out. Any idea on when is this going to change? Unless you know for sure that your boss's answer is an immediate "Absolutely!" How about a thread on the current hiring/moving freeze, or on surviving the New Ice Age? Staff Software Engineer, Google Cloud Platforms, Senior Staff Software Engineer, Infrastructure, Principal Engineer, Developer Platform Systems, Senior Software Engineer, Mobile (Android), AR. Also, its important to keep in mind that it is impossible to provide a perfect definition of any level. It's a good time to flip back through that. Senior->principal->partner are the level bands, 63/64->65/66/67, 68/69/70. If so, then you're going to have a hard time finding senior IC spots anywhere. Asshole managers aren't unknown at Apple [] The fact that you praise someone for "junk yard dog mode" shows me that Microsoft has a fundamentally broken corporate cultureThanks for a nice belly laugh to re-energize my morning. Senior finance leader with several years of experience as a member of executive teams within large Australian blue chip and global multi-national companies with broad and diverse background and wide-ranging experience. Seek out local critique before you approach people above you. Apple's about to ship Snow Leopard with no new features. I also don't know if this is the first step towards a lay-off, but for now, it seems we'll have jobs for a few more months.Ugh, not good, not good at all>I am a partner. YES, life is unfair.At the end, mastering 'soft skills' will help anyone: even someone at 59. Let's apply that stick to cronyism and punishment based management practicies. Oldest and (still) best advice I've gotten is move around a lot; no two teams' cultures or needs are the same, so you have something to offer wherever you look. Specifically, what did they accomplish, and what contributions do you see them doing to justify their promotion? L68 is partner, or you may see GM. If you read CSPs this is the underlying message more or less. He/she and you should know exactly what you need to do to get to the next level. When does that year start? If you get caught in a review and someone hits a fastball by you and you stumble, the people above you suddenly have fears that you might stumble when they and you are in front of the person who controls their careers. Can someone explain to me the leadership hierarchy | Fishbowl Up to that point the "what" you accomplish can get you pretty far and you get some wiggly room on the how. Maybe everybody's aware of being "in lockdown" and keeping their heads down? IBM got their position by focusing on the customer. Former is work of many years and long nights and proven track record while later is basically your ability to bullshit through 6 interviews. I would get vague directives like you need to be the thought leader or you need to improve your system knowledge. Perhaps someone can explain to me how you get successfully promoted without your boss's support. Promotion budgets of 65 and above has been kept intact.Where did you hear this? It would be the pinnacle of dumbness. Are all management titles and the name used to call then in different orgs can change. "Sad but true. No one else was as good. I got to point where I resented my manager so much I could barely talk to him. don't make enemies), change jobs about once every 3-4 years, and do your job reasonably wellfor a decade.